2008-09-04 21:00:22 The gut-wrenchingly violent Fighting Game thread! *punches face*

So uh, as usual when I don't want to start some random thread about something small and specific that'll just float by, I pump a huge budget into it and make it a FEATURE THREAD with BIG NAMES like GRIFTGFX, ALIMOKRANE and LEBATO and JOLLIPOP! And uh, music by Hans Zimmer. Can't hear it? Well it sounds a lot like the score from The Rock.


So, yes, I noticed that King of Fighters 98: Ultimate Match is coming to the Xbox Live Arcade. This is pretty major because I suspect that's one awesome game.

The reason I suspect that it is is because.. there's a bit of confusion surrounding that game's original arcade release and subsequent home versions. I hope someone can shine some light on the matter for me.

From what I gather, Dream Match 99 for Dreamcast (which was *awesome*) was a renaming of the arcade game King of Fighters 98 simply because it came out a year later on home consoles. The next DC game with K on the cover (gray haired leather fellow) was the real KOF99.

This however, if I understand everything correctly, is some kind of super version of Dream Match 99 that came out earlier this year on Playstation 2. If this is the case, and I think we can expect online play for the XBLA version, it's big freaking news.

As much as I enjoy KOF11, it can't match the sheer volume of aforementioned DC version.

Oh and anything fighting game related is of course welcome in the thread, it's a fighting free for all.

2008-09-04 21:50:00

Nice.. but I thought that was announced ages ago? Weren't they supposed to bring a few SNK classic fighters to the arcade? As good as KOF98 is, one thing I wish XBLA releases would do is focus on the best games in a series. I realize this is subjective, but why can't we get stuff like Mark of the Wolves, Marvel Versus Capcom 2, or Capcom Versus SNK 2 (yes, 2). Given the pace of XBL releases, wouldn't that make more sense?

I haven't had the oppertunity to pick up KOFXI yet. I should grab it, before XII comes out. They look to be dramatically different games, but I could use some fresh King of Fighting.

I'm totally happy with the way things are right now. It aint perfect, but it's a situation where you just can't look that gift horse in the mouth, right? People said this genre was all but dead, and we have a new Virtua Fighter (and a new revision!), a Soul Calibur release that's a multi-million seller, the first high definition 2D fighting game ever in KOFXII, and a bunch of new "Capcom" fighters! That's fucking awesome, aint it?

Top it all off with some sort of second tier releases that could wind up being true gems, and well, take that haters!

2008-09-04 21:54:05 In reply to GriftGFX (2008-09-04 21:50:00)

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We seek permission to devour you. We mean...to approach the bench.

2008-09-04 22:00:05 In reply to Megido (2008-09-04 21:54:05)

2008-09-04 22:13:15

Even EVO took a step backwards from VF4 in some pretty puzzling regards. The way it handled your profile for one! No more portable profile made item collection and statistics/records practically useless! :O

As for Ultimate Match being announced, KOF94 was announced forever ago, but there's really quite a huge difference in quality between those games. KOF94 is more of a Ms Pacman or Joust kind of XBLA title where you kinda risk buying it for nostalgia but never really play it. KOF98/DM99(DC) however is a brilliant fighting game that I personally would say is probably the best iteration of KOF so far. The gigantic roster does present some balance issues and top tier behavior, but even then all your faves are in it, so no heartbreaking Andy Bogardlessness ala KOF11.

As for VF5:R I kind of worry that they won't bother with it. It would be the perfect opportunity to bring PS3 VF up to speed with online play and what have you, and that fact actually makes it a little bit more likely I reckon, but part of me (a bigger part) suspects it'll be as overlooked as Dark Resurrection was.

BECAUSE NO, PSP VERSION OF A FREAKING FIGHTING GAME REVISION DOES NOT COUNT!

Let's just say there was some biterness there.

And yes, I agree that what has to happen is a new, much improved training mode for it. It's insane that now that I can get my friends interested in it because of the online, there's no fair chance for them to actually learn all the nuttily advanced stuff in it. Oh well, at least it's better than the downright confusing SC4 training mode where they must've given settings bewildering names on purpose.

2008-09-04 22:17:27

Yeah, VF NEEDS a tutorial mode like VF4:EVO had. Before Evo i just found VF to be slow and stupid, then EVO taught me how to play and i just fell in love. VF is really the best fighter ever in my opinion and while i liked VF5 i would love a better training/tutorial mode for the new features (and also to help keep the skills up). But yeah, it's a vital tool for any newbie, that's for sure.

Hope we get it here. If we do i might even consider picking up or building a stick.

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We seek permission to devour you. We mean...to approach the bench.

2008-09-04 22:21:28

Where in sweden do you live Megido? I know a few people from the olde days who prolly would re-mobilize if we could get some games going again. My VF playing peak was with VF3 and back then we had pretty frequent gatherings in Göteborg. I got my ass thoroughly handed to me every time but it was lots of fun regardless.

2008-09-04 22:27:36

Stockholm area, Haninge if you want to be picky, so no go i guess. I've considered going to a few of the nordic gatherings but so far i just haven't had the time or the money (really laughable since one of the previous ones were in slakthusområdet which is like 30 minutes from my house :P

Also about getting my ass handed to me, i'm used to that. I play tekken with one of my friends, and he's really good...so we usually end up with scores in the area of 50-0 in his favor :P It's like, after a while you just accept that you will get pissed on.

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We seek permission to devour you. We mean...to approach the bench.

2008-09-04 22:38:35

Ah I see. Well I live in malmö these days, doing my comic artisty thing down here so I'd be ruined if I went up to Stockholm frequently. :)

Heck I'm ruined without going anywhere!

2008-09-04 22:44:57

Well, i generally feel i don't have much time to spare anyways. Between art school, cleaning and friends i just don't have time to kick ass.

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We seek permission to devour you. We mean...to approach the bench.

2008-09-04 23:03:06

I just always kick ass. ;)

2008-09-04 23:11:39

The sad thing about VF is that unless you put all your heart in to it you won't get any good. It's like playing a goddamn instrument or something. Only it's way more geeky and i'd be ashamed to admit that i practice it daily. Uh, even thinking about it i feel a strong need to practice my guitar for a while jsut to make sure i'm spending my time on something worth while :D

Also i do kick ass, just not of the virtual variety.

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We seek permission to devour you. We mean...to approach the bench.

2008-09-04 23:29:55

Well that's kind of a crux of fighting games in general I think. The catch 22 if you will.

I don't really like the feeling that I'm not playing something properly, 100% like. I don't like to play accessible-yet-deep fighting games and feel like I'm dabbling just the tiniest bit beneath the surface. Getting really awesome at it however usually requires tons of work.

However, putting tons of work into a fighter that is accessible has me blazing past my much-less-ambitious local fighting game friends and their five year old's random mash tactics, alienating pretty much my entire circle of competition.

For me to just relax and enjoy a fighter on the level my friends do, I need it to be Super Smash Brothers or Mortal Kombat. Something completely nuts and essentially just for laughs. The irony though is that it's pretty difficult to find a really good casual fighter, and SSMB is really the only one I can think of.

2008-09-04 23:57:24

I agree with Grift on this one, even more so on the games they should be taking to Xbox Live, and I would rather take an HD version rather than simple ports. Or why not, a completely new game. It does seem to me that fighters are making a combat. SFIV is actually looking good, Xbox Live porting (as much as I hate it), SC, VF (I hate it too but has many fans), and the new KOF.

I hope they realize that there is still lots of potential though and truly invest in these games. I think in a fighting game content--lots of it--is an absolute must. I don't think it's like having just a good fighting game and all you can do is play 1 vs 1 and MAYBE play online.

Fighting games need more variety, some compelling single player modes, rewarding the player (high quality ending sequences), lots of stages, characters, game modes, and options options options! I still find it hard to believe that SCIV only has two difficulty settings when the first one had a scale from 1 to 10. This kind of limiting is kind of ridiculous.

So what I'm trying to say is that there is lots of room for improvement, and I think that is a great opportunity for devs/publishers.

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2008-09-05 00:21:07

While I somewhat agree and I totally see where you're coming from, I can't help but feel that maybe adding CG endings to Virtua Fighter is fooling oneself and the players that are attracted to it a little bit. I think if you play a new FIFA game for the ending sequences then you probably want to look elsewhere for your gaming fix.

I do agree though that the fighting game genre is surprisingly narrow. It's even more weird when you consider that the reason it's narrow is because the top fighting game franchises are still rooted in competitive/balanced arcade gameplay. The arenas are usually cleared of obstacles and other factors that can disturb the balance and take focus away from what you're doing (except Dead or Alive which still has its fair share of multi-leveled nonsense) and you really never see any degradation of the fighters depending on where they've been hit and stuff like that.

I mean I hope that day never comes, when these hardcore fighters give in to that, but the mainstream are clearly crying out for it. So, what surprises me is that there is almost none of that.

I mean you could easily go absolutely nuts and make a fighting game that is entirely tailored to the button mashing, CG ending junkies that barely scratch the surface of a serious fighter anyway. You could fill it up with all sorts of insanely cool looking moves and combos and context sensitive environmental attacks. Loads of content and unlockables and story modes and co-op or whatever. I mean the genre doesn't have to pretend to adhere to the Street Fighter or VF school of fighting games, and yet basically every single one does!

I mean look at Mortal Kombat! Who the hell are they kidding even keeping it remotely reminicent of a normal fighting game. Maybe UMK3 was still reasonably playable, but the later ones have just been hilarious and stupid - so why aren't they stupider and hilariouser..er...rer..?

ONE GAME I can think of did this and they seemed to think it needed the name of a record label to sell. Def Jam could've embraced a completely different style, gotten rid of the ultimately probably off-putting to many inclusion of rappers - and with that the sense that if you weren't into hip hop you should stay clear of the game - and been the first really "modern" and mainstream fighting game.

I just don't get why that isn't happening, and with ICON being absolutely fucking dreadful in addition to screwing over the awesome formula of its predecessors, it'll prolly be ages before someone else stumbles across the idea.

Again I reiterate; I love VF. I will never wish this on VF or any of the serious fighters I'm playing. I'm just saying that wrapping them in a presentation that somehow softens up the edges for people who aren't really investing in it for the gameplay's sake isn't necessarily the way to go, I think.

But then if that sort of thing can result in unwittingly warming to the gameplay and becoming addicted to it then that's awesome too, so yeah. :)

2008-09-05 00:45:38

Well VF isn't really the prime example of the content problem. Sega's solo presentation in Virtua Fighter trumps everyone's best attempts in the genre. I've bitched about it for years now. Virtua Fighter has evolved in that sense where other fighters are stuck in the mud. It seems like the general attitude is that if the competition doesn't evolve (sans Virtua Fighter), why should we?

Namco in particular drives me a little batty in that sense. They seem to be trying to give gamers plenty of content on the solo side to play with, but it's not particularly appealing content. Seriously, just copy Sega. It's the one thing they've managed to nail in this last decade.

2008-09-05 01:07:45

As long as people get into the characters and drama, the VF thing isn't gonna work though. I think many people are downright put off by the disconnect that the VF presentation forces on them.

I mean I've always been playing VF from an arcade player's standpoint so to me it's only natural to offer that kind of single player experience. I've never really given two shits about Jeffry and his boat. Or was it a shark? I can't remember, but anyhow I don't really miss spectacular CG sequences of him riding his boat - or shark - around.

I agree that it's much more compelling than what SC is doing, but I don't think the copy paste thing would work there what with many "casual" players - if I may refer to them as such without bringing up images of waggling grannies - being invested in the fate of the *actual characters*.

But that is where I think it's pulling in two different directions. I think for SC to inspire people to play it properly (I have friends who refuse to learn GI's because they're "impossible", oh well.) it could certainly do well to get people into the competitive "sports" like mindset with the VF presentation, but that would alienate people who aren't in it for that type of expeirence at all. Who would really rather prefer a game like I described in my previous post.