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GriftGFX

He can also
ban your ass! GriftGFX - He can also<br>ban your ass!

Since 1178 Days

2008-08-23 18:52:33 In reply to szaromir (2008-08-23 18:50:38)

Posted by szaromir

More improtantly, it really plays like Anniversary and not like Legend! That's really great.

Yup.. but I expected that. Anniversary was a better game, remake or not.

szaromir

Since 934 Days

2008-08-23 19:12:02 In reply to GriftGFX (2008-08-23 18:52:33)

Posted by GriftGFX

Yup.. but I expected that. Anniversary was a better game, remake or not.

True... But, well, you never know what decision developers will make to appeal to wider audience. :)

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"That just happened 'cause that was awesome" - Randy Pitchford, Gearbox

alimokrane

Since 1108 Days

2008-08-23 21:22:54

I am not so sure when u say it plays like anniversary more than legend when I always thought they played the same. it was level design that was different, is that what u meant ?

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||BUY|| TRU - POP4 - FC2 - TLR - IU - ToV - GoW2 - Fable 2 - VP2 - BK3

||RENT|| SH5 - Mirror's E - TH - Naruto BB - SCVI

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szaromir

Since 934 Days

2008-08-23 21:35:43 In reply to alimokrane (2008-08-23 21:22:54)

Posted by alimokrane

I am not so sure when u say it plays like anniversary more than legend when I always thought they played the same. it was level design that was different, is that what u meant ?

Well, I had only combat/platforming ratio in mind :)

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"That just happened 'cause that was awesome" - Randy Pitchford, Gearbox

alimokrane

Since 1108 Days

2008-08-23 21:37:38 In reply to szaromir (2008-08-23 21:35:43)

Posted by szaromir

Well, I had only combat/platforming ratio in mind :)

Ah, I see. in that case, I agree. The focus seems to be more on Platforming and puzzles in that demo which is a VERY good thing. This game has only one problem: Swimming animations and water effects while swimming - I am sure these will be fixed given that these aspects were top notch in Legend and Anniversary so I'm not worried. they three months to polish this up.

LEBATO

IS WRONG LEBATO - IS WRONG

Since 1300 Days

2008-08-23 22:26:01

That looked entertaining but really, the shooting looked weak as hell, with lots of targeting issues. Tigers also looked a little unfair.

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alimokrane

Since 1108 Days

2008-08-24 00:13:18 In reply to LEBATO (2008-08-23 22:26:01)

Posted by LEBATO

That looked entertaining but really, the shooting looked weak as hell, with lots of targeting issues. Tigers also looked a little unfair.

tomb Raider [DOES NOT EQUAL] shooter

KORNdog

Since 582 Days

2008-08-24 00:32:11 In reply to alimokrane (2008-08-24 00:13:18)

Posted by alimokrane

tomb Raider [DOES NOT EQUAL] shooter

that shouldn't mean its ok for the shooting that is there to be as crappy as it is. they could have at least refined it a bit. there no need for cover systems and 8,000 weapons, as you said, tomb raider isnt a shooter, but the shooting should have at least been adressed

anyway, i wonder when we'll see tomb raider have multiple paths through levels. i like the fact they've made the levels larger, but from that video it looked just as linear, one way to do the platforming, one way to progress. im hoping tomp raider 10 or uncharted 2 gives us multiple platforming paths to reach the same destination, it'd make the whole thing feel a lot more fresh and interesting.

the only game that seems to be doing that is the new prince of persia, but even that feels kinda artificial (go left or go right) multiple options when your hanging on any given ledge would be nice... do i wanna jump to the bar, to the vine, or do i want to jump across to another ledge and progress that way etc. its the only way i can see this type of platform adventure game advancing any further. atm its kinda just following a pre-defined path through the platforming sections. you HAVE to jump to that ledge and you HAVE to jump from that ledge to the vine etc. i'd like more freedom personally. definately giving this a rent tho.

Jollipop

Since 1061 Days

2008-08-24 00:54:48

Korn can you tell me exactly what you would like to see refined in the combat ?

I don't see it even possible to run around and target a creature that is faster than you, let alone 3 of them, that is why its using auto targeting and easy kills, I'm sure boss fights will be more challenging.

What do you want Lara to do, climb up a cliff and snipe it from the tree tops ?

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Marumaro for the WIN !!

alimokrane

Since 1108 Days

2008-08-24 00:57:38

I keep repeating myself but I never thought the shooting in Tomb raider was broken. Camera perhaps needs a bit of work but other than that, I am perfectly happy.

Now regarding the multiple paths, in Action adventure games like these (tomb raider, uncharted), it is very time consuming and budget hungry to have multiple paths ... it's like making three games into one. The new prince of persia claims to be doing this but I dont buy it until I can see it.

Jollipop

Since 1061 Days

2008-08-24 00:58:30

I agree with you Alimo it seems everyone these days all they want is shooters, fuck the day that happens I will give up gaming all together.

Instead of multiple paths I would rather see procedurally generated maps, so everytime is different, but I doubt we will see tech like that until the next consoles come out.

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Marumaro for the WIN !!

alimokrane

Since 1108 Days

2008-08-24 00:59:55 In reply to Jollipop (2008-08-24 00:58:30)

Posted by Jollipop

I agree with you Alimo it seems everyone these days all they want is shooters, fuck the day that happens I will give up gaming all together.

That's the point, even previewers complain about the shooting. I swear to god, I would take gunplay combat COMPLETELY OUT of tomb raider if I were Eidos.

KORNdog

Since 582 Days

2008-08-24 01:15:56 In reply to alimokrane (2008-08-24 00:59:55)

Posted by alimokrane

That's the point, even previewers complain about the shooting. I swear to god, I would take gunplay combat COMPLETELY OUT of tomb raider if I were Eidos.

exactly, everyone complains about it, reviewers and all, so if you where going to keep it in, surely you'd at least improve it? which from the looks of things they havnt. i'd personally want it removed entirely too, but thats not going to happen since its part of the series...so why not just make it better. and thus creating a better game as a whole. cos atm, as with all tomb raiders, it does platforming well, but then falls flat the moment you have to kill something.

you'd think considering they have a solid platforming system in there that they'd want to bring the other elements up to that level?

Jollipop

Since 1061 Days

2008-08-24 01:29:26

I wouldn't take it completely out, I think they would have to leave boss battles in, otherwise it could become quite boring.

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Marumaro for the WIN !!

alimokrane

Since 1108 Days

2008-08-24 10:40:32 In reply to Jollipop (2008-08-24 01:29:26)

Posted by KORNdog

Ok. but what do you want ? a cover system a la uncharted, a first person view a la Alone in the dark. think we can all agree those dont belong here. They added dual targeting, the added the adrenline slow motion thing to get head shots and dispatch enemies immediately, you can now shot while platforming as well .... I honestly dont see how things can improve - I repeat, I dont think the gunplay in Tomb Raider is broken. What they need to address is the camera perhaps but I think it's fine as it is.

Posted by Jollipop

I wouldn't take it completely out, I think they would have to leave boss battles in, otherwise it could become quite boring.

Yeah, I went over board with that. after all The Dual pistols are Lara's signature.

KORNdog

Since 582 Days

2008-08-24 18:51:21 In reply to alimokrane (2008-08-24 10:40:32)

Posted by alimokrane

Ok. but what do you want ? a cover system a la uncharted.

as i said originally, and i quote...

"there no need for cover systems and 8,000 weapons, as you said, tomb raider isnt a shooter, but the shooting should have at least been adressed"

you know how almost all games make refinements to their games for every sequel, they make elements better and generally make things play better as a whole... thats what they need to do.

you said yourself that all the previewers complain about the combat, and thats the games problem. YOU may not see anything wrong with the combat, but obviously previewers and reviewers do (as do i), which ultimately lowers the games score come review time. so surely that element should be improved?

i come across as someone with some sort of personal ventdetta against this game, but thats not why im stating my issues with it, its because i know how good the game COULD be with cetain elements improved, the series could reach the level it once did back with tomb raider 1 and 2 in terms of praise and review scores. but as it stands the devs simply dont seem to be adressing the few problems the game has ALWAYS had, and instead are just improving one aspect (platforming) yes they've added the ability to shoot while on a ledge, but the core combat is like the system in TR: legend...lacklustre at best.

i dont think im alone in saying that im kinda sick of fighting the same old tigers in the same old jungle using the same old combat system. at this point i need more to make me get truely excited about a tomb raider sequel again. maybe tomb raider 10 will be the one?

Jollipop

Since 1061 Days

2008-08-24 20:35:55

Ok then I will ask again, what would you have different about the combat, what would you add to make it better.

Seriously if your guna complain about a feature so much you better have an a few idea's to what you would make it better.

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Marumaro for the WIN !!

szaromir

Since 934 Days

2008-08-24 22:18:26

Combat is not an essential gameplay mechanic for Tomb Raider series, hence it can stay the way it is. It's there to add some diversity and some enjoyable fast paced action between long platforming/puzzle sequences, not to have the most memorable encounters in gaming history. I'd say that in TR Anniversary for 1 minute of shooting, there was 20 minutes of platforming... In Half-life series you have plenty of platforming, and even though it's not good enough to become a separate game, it's there to bring some diversity and slower paced action (exactly like shooting in TR) - and I think it serves its purpose quite well. However, I haven't seen anyone bashing Half-Life for having platform elements that are not good enough for a platform game, because everyone is aware that it's not even supposed to be that good. Similarly, I think Tomb Raider shouldn't be bashed for its shooting elements).

I'd say I wouldn't even want Crystal Dynamics to significantly redo combat, because they'd probably want to flesh it out more and put more, longer encounters.

There is something though that should be changed about combat as it is now - combat in the first Tomb Raider and to some extent in TR2 really brought tension to these games. These games were so peaceful and quiet, that everytime I heard a sudden animal sounds like barking, howling, etc. my heart immediately started to pound much stronger. OTOH in Legend and Anniversary that's certainly not the case - in Legend you always know way in advance when there'll be a fight, and in Anniversary some dynamic music always kicks in before enemies appear, so you're warned as well. Crystal Dynamics certainly should do something that would bring back that feeling of tension.

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"That just happened 'cause that was awesome" - Randy Pitchford, Gearbox

alimokrane

Since 1108 Days

2008-08-24 23:21:41

KORNdog, have you played Tomb Raider Legend ?

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||BUY|| TRU - POP4 - FC2 - TLR - IU - ToV - GoW2 - Fable 2 - TH

||RENT|| SH5 - Mirror's E - VP2 - BK3 - Naruto BB - SCVI

||2009|| FF13 - Splinter Cell 5 - Alan W - RE5 - I'm Alive - Cry On - SO4 - BG&E2 - Bayonetta - Doom 4 - Lords of Shadow - SF4

alimokrane

Since 1108 Days

2008-08-24 23:22:55 In reply to szaromir (2008-08-24 22:18:26)

Posted by szaromir

That's the best example. THANK YOU!

szaromir

Since 934 Days

2008-08-25 01:32:22 In reply to alimokrane (2008-08-24 23:21:41)

I found an interesting quote on another forum, where a guy from Crustal Dynamics talks about combat (and many other things) in Underworld

Posted by user

I like the run and gun mechanics to kill them tigers in gamersyde video. Looks interesting to pull off backflips n gunfire at the same time. This one being more like the 1st TR IMO.

Posted by guyFromCD

Funny thing is, the people who shot all the videos aren't even doing anything interesting with it. They're playing through the combat as if it was a conversation in World of Warcraft (you know the types I'm talking about). They didn't do the cute little things like stomping on the tigers' heads and running up and jumping off their backs and shooting them from behind or dropping sticky grenades on them or doing all the bullet time trickery.

http://forums.e-mpire.com/showpost.php?p=1922545&p...

Pretty cool.

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"That just happened 'cause that was awesome" - Randy Pitchford, Gearbox

GriftGFX

He can also
ban your ass! GriftGFX - He can also<br>ban your ass!

Since 1178 Days

2008-08-25 05:46:54 In reply to szaromir (2008-08-23 19:12:02)

Posted by szaromir

True... But, well, you never know what decision developers will make to appeal to wider audience. :)

Touche buddy :P

szaromir

Since 934 Days

2008-08-25 10:28:53 In reply to GriftGFX (2008-08-25 05:46:54)

Posted by GriftGFX